carlo.comments: carlo.log → Nov 3rd 2004, 16:40 GMT
Xyleth
· 5 years ago
Amen to that Mr G.
Time to start digging those bomb shelters.
You're quite right that the very worst part of the whole thing is that to Bush and co it will look like they've just got a massive 'thumbs up' from the American people. Hell they have! Which means more of the same, probably with greater fervour that last time. If I were in Iran or N. Korea, or anywhere else on Americas shit list for that matter, I would be very, very scared right now.
Elections roll around next year in the UK. I sincerly hope that we can replace Mr Blair with someone not quite so ready to bow to Bush's every whim.
terpsichoros
· 5 years ago
Yup, we're dividing the world, all right. We're dividing it between countries which generally believe in civilized norms of warfare and life, and those who don't.
60 years ago, we took down Germany, even though Germany hadn't attacked us, because it was the right thing to do. Taking down Afghanistan and Iraq has been a net benefit to humanity at large, and to the people of those countries. Taking down Iran would be worthwhile if successful, but it's far more difficult than Iraq, and it's fairly likely to fall over on its own.
Personally, I'd prefer taking down "Saudi" Arabia next, but the Democratic party didn't have the stomach for that and didn't nominate Wesley Clark.
Carlo Zottmann
· 5 years ago
First of all, Germany was trying to conquer the world and aggressively expanding at that time, so it was only natural other countries would react. (That was a good thing.) Neither Afghanistan nor Iraq did attack the US. Afghanistan was actively harboring the terrorists who did, so the idea to go into Afghanistan wasn't too far-fetched, I agree that it made sense to a certain degree.
But Iraq was a sovereign country at that time, like it or not. It was a dictatorship, but that doesn't make it any less sovereign. There have been no attacks towards the US, so effectively that makes the USA the aggressor. Like it or not. There was no diplomacy involved, the global council (i.e. the UN) was stepped on by the US, who waltzed into the Iraq for the oil and/or expansion. The "we brought democracy" crap doesn't count, since from my POV there were no real plans for either nation building nor democracy, unless you consider US oil corps taking over Iraqi oil fields as bringing democracy.
Second, there was no UN in the 1940s, don't forget. The UN was founded to act as mediator, to prevent war. If a country as big as the US is ignoring the UN from one day to the other, it sets a dangerous precedent for other countries. There was no diplomacy before that war, there were no facts, there was just fake, fabricated evidence for things that never happened nor existed. Sadly, that makes the US an aggressor. (I'm not talking about the troops in the US, they're soldiers, and it was their concious choice to serve their country. It's not their fault they are used in that way.)
So, what's my problem, for it isn't my country I am talking about? I'm a citizen of this world, just like everyone else. And the way I see it is that ~ 60mio Americans gave this world the finger today, which is their right, because they live in a pretty democratic country. But that doesn't make me feel any better.
The fact that I can't visit my friends in the US anymore because your government decided everyone not American is a potential terrorist and as such needs to register his/her finger prints and retina scans when entering the country isn't helping neither.
There is a country I like(d), and I see it going down the drain while taking the rest of the world with it, and that makes me just sad (and increasingly nervous).
Xyleth
· 5 years ago
I saw a quote that described watching the US from abroad at the moment as 'like watching a good friend go totally batshit crazy'. I find it to be a rather good quote all told.
[Quote] Personally, I'd prefer taking down "Saudi" Arabia next [Quote]
Says it all really.
Unspeakable ignorance.
Xyleth
· 5 years ago
Oh, and another thing while I am about it.
My Grandmother is an 86 year old Italian. She lived in Italy in the years preceeding WWII and witnessed first hand Mussolini's rise to power and his closeness to Hitler.
They also thought they were doing 'the right thing'. They also thought they were doing the world a favour. And not one of the citizens of Germany or Italy seriously realised what was happening to them until it was far too late to do anything about it. IN fact a lot of them thought that what they (their leaders) were doing was a really good thing and was doing wonders for their respective countries.
A couple of weeks ago I was discussing the current war in Iraq with my grandmother, just as something to talk about really. I made the comment that while I disagreed strongly with what Mr Blair had done in Iraq he really did have a rather good domestic track record. She replied that that's exaclty what everyone said about Mussolini before WW II started.
Made me think.
I'm not claiming that the US is going to turn into Nazi Germany (there goes Godwins law again). In fact I think that is highly unlikely to happen (I personal find it more likely that the US would tear itself apart in a civil war first). However there are some lines that a country wanting to call itself civilised cannot be allowed to cross.
Invading another soverign nation that has made no direct attack on your country nor poses a crediable threat is one of them.
You see the problem is once you invade one you'll ineveitably have to invade another, and then another and another and another. It's catching. You have to keep moving forwards to show the people back home that you're keeping the momentum up and not getting mired in a local guriella war.
Iraq is not, now, a free nation. It's an occupided territory of the United States of America. It may well become a free country in the future but I strongly suspect that it will be in spite of, not because of, the US's attemtempts to free it.
Right now Iraq is the largest recruiting banner for radical muslim terrorists that the radical leaders could ever have wished for. And it will stay that way because the US patently doesn't know how to win the peace in Iraq without resorting to massive levels of violence taht will just fan the flames higher.
If you don't believe me just watch the situation in Falluigha over the next few weeks now Bush doesn't have to worry about the election.
The US cannot win in Iraq because it does not know how to win. All it knows is how to hit people with a very big stick (as a side note I don't know how to win either, but then I'm not the one with the big stick).
So the US will be forced into invading somewhere else (possibly Iran, maybe not), in order to proove that it is actually going somewhere and not just getting American soliders killed for no good reason. Then things really will start to go all to hell.
The irony here, for me at least, is that I hope, nay I very nearly pray, that I'm wrong. Nothing would make me happier than to come back here in 4 years and have to say to Terp that he was right and I was wrong.
Anyone care to take odds on that happening? Anyone?
BlackSheep
· 5 years ago
I think you're absolutely right, Gossip, the US is acting like a big ornery aggressor, and frankly, I'm more than a little concerned that we're beginning to look like you described Germany - " trying to conquer the world and aggressively expanding at that time, so it was only natural other countries would react." - which leads to the natural reaction we're seeing, little bitty groups of frustrated people attacking us (albeit we call them "terrorists") and damned if we aren't starting to really look like we deserve it.
I'm an American and I don't feel defended. I feel very, very nervous. I feel like the little sister of the big bullying asshole, and nobody in the school yard likes me.
ekoostik
· 5 years ago
Wow... So much hate. :(
As for the election process being silly, yes I agree. I don't really care for the electoral college system, it doesn't make much sense to me how someone can win without the popular vote. In this election, the popular vote was with the winner however, thankfully. I was very happy to see that at least.
I'm glad you bring some "facts" to your opinions, instead of something like that bullshit Moore movie that is full of lies and deceipt.
I want to go on more about this, but really I'll probably only piss people off. I just happen to see a lot of good things coming out of the actions taken by our president, and am not blinded by the media whom focuses on every single negative aspect of the situation. It's unfortunate.
entipy
· 5 years ago
I don't like the way our country is headed, and I don't think I'd like it regardless of who's in office. It's just the way it is. We're too large and too diverse to be under one national government. Hel, even states are almost too big to be governing themselves.
But, this is the nature of things. Change, evolution, growth, power, corruption, devolution, catastrophe.
It's happened throughout the world throughout history. Unfotunately, it will continue to happen. That is the bane of humanity.
So, I will do what I can to make my own life better - and the life of my child and family. I will change what I can within the scope of my own personal power, and I will try to not let the rest bother me so much. What else can I do?
All Comments
Time to start digging those bomb shelters.
You're quite right that the very worst part of the whole thing is that to Bush and co it will look like they've just got a massive 'thumbs up' from the American people. Hell they have! Which means more of the same, probably with greater fervour that last time. If I were in Iran or N. Korea, or anywhere else on Americas shit list for that matter, I would be very, very scared right now.
Elections roll around next year in the UK. I sincerly hope that we can replace Mr Blair with someone not quite so ready to bow to Bush's every whim.
60 years ago, we took down Germany, even though Germany hadn't attacked us, because it was the right thing to do. Taking down Afghanistan and Iraq has been a net benefit to humanity at large, and to the people of those countries. Taking down Iran would be worthwhile if successful, but it's far more difficult than Iraq, and it's fairly likely to fall over on its own.
Personally, I'd prefer taking down "Saudi" Arabia next, but the Democratic party didn't have the stomach for that and didn't nominate Wesley Clark.
But Iraq was a sovereign country at that time, like it or not. It was a dictatorship, but that doesn't make it any less sovereign. There have been no attacks towards the US, so effectively that makes the USA the aggressor. Like it or not. There was no diplomacy involved, the global council (i.e. the UN) was stepped on by the US, who waltzed into the Iraq for the oil and/or expansion. The "we brought democracy" crap doesn't count, since from my POV there were no real plans for either nation building nor democracy, unless you consider US oil corps taking over Iraqi oil fields as bringing democracy.
Second, there was no UN in the 1940s, don't forget. The UN was founded to act as mediator, to prevent war. If a country as big as the US is ignoring the UN from one day to the other, it sets a dangerous precedent for other countries. There was no diplomacy before that war, there were no facts, there was just fake, fabricated evidence for things that never happened nor existed. Sadly, that makes the US an aggressor. (I'm not talking about the troops in the US, they're soldiers, and it was their concious choice to serve their country. It's not their fault they are used in that way.)
So, what's my problem, for it isn't my country I am talking about? I'm a citizen of this world, just like everyone else. And the way I see it is that ~ 60mio Americans gave this world the finger today, which is their right, because they live in a pretty democratic country. But that doesn't make me feel any better.
The fact that I can't visit my friends in the US anymore because your government decided everyone not American is a potential terrorist and as such needs to register his/her finger prints and retina scans when entering the country isn't helping neither.
There is a country I like(d), and I see it going down the drain while taking the rest of the world with it, and that makes me just sad (and increasingly nervous).
Says it all really.
Unspeakable ignorance.
My Grandmother is an 86 year old Italian. She lived in Italy in the years preceeding WWII and witnessed first hand Mussolini's rise to power and his closeness to Hitler.
They also thought they were doing 'the right thing'. They also thought they were doing the world a favour. And not one of the citizens of Germany or Italy seriously realised what was happening to them until it was far too late to do anything about it. IN fact a lot of them thought that what they (their leaders) were doing was a really good thing and was doing wonders for their respective countries.
A couple of weeks ago I was discussing the current war in Iraq with my grandmother, just as something to talk about really. I made the comment that while I disagreed strongly with what Mr Blair had done in Iraq he really did have a rather good domestic track record. She replied that that's exaclty what everyone said about Mussolini before WW II started.
Made me think.
I'm not claiming that the US is going to turn into Nazi Germany (there goes Godwins law again). In fact I think that is highly unlikely to happen (I personal find it more likely that the US would tear itself apart in a civil war first). However there are some lines that a country wanting to call itself civilised cannot be allowed to cross.
Invading another soverign nation that has made no direct attack on your country nor poses a crediable threat is one of them.
You see the problem is once you invade one you'll ineveitably have to invade another, and then another and another and another. It's catching. You have to keep moving forwards to show the people back home that you're keeping the momentum up and not getting mired in a local guriella war.
Iraq is not, now, a free nation. It's an occupided territory of the United States of America. It may well become a free country in the future but I strongly suspect that it will be in spite of, not because of, the US's attemtempts to free it.
Right now Iraq is the largest recruiting banner for radical muslim terrorists that the radical leaders could ever have wished for. And it will stay that way because the US patently doesn't know how to win the peace in Iraq without resorting to massive levels of violence taht will just fan the flames higher.
If you don't believe me just watch the situation in Falluigha over the next few weeks now Bush doesn't have to worry about the election.
The US cannot win in Iraq because it does not know how to win. All it knows is how to hit people with a very big stick (as a side note I don't know how to win either, but then I'm not the one with the big stick).
So the US will be forced into invading somewhere else (possibly Iran, maybe not), in order to proove that it is actually going somewhere and not just getting American soliders killed for no good reason. Then things really will start to go all to hell.
The irony here, for me at least, is that I hope, nay I very nearly pray, that I'm wrong. Nothing would make me happier than to come back here in 4 years and have to say to Terp that he was right and I was wrong.
Anyone care to take odds on that happening? Anyone?
I'm an American and I don't feel defended. I feel very, very nervous. I feel like the little sister of the big bullying asshole, and nobody in the school yard likes me.
As for the election process being silly, yes I agree. I don't really care for the electoral college system, it doesn't make much sense to me how someone can win without the popular vote. In this election, the popular vote was with the winner however, thankfully. I was very happy to see that at least.
I'm glad you bring some "facts" to your opinions, instead of something like that bullshit Moore movie that is full of lies and deceipt.
I want to go on more about this, but really I'll probably only piss people off. I just happen to see a lot of good things coming out of the actions taken by our president, and am not blinded by the media whom focuses on every single negative aspect of the situation. It's unfortunate.
But, this is the nature of things. Change, evolution, growth, power, corruption, devolution, catastrophe.
It's happened throughout the world throughout history. Unfotunately, it will continue to happen. That is the bane of humanity.
So, I will do what I can to make my own life better - and the life of my child and family. I will change what I can within the scope of my own personal power, and I will try to not let the rest bother me so much. What else can I do?